##  [# Jennifer Grancio @ Future Proof: Private Credit Investing](/sections/conferences/jennifer-grancio-future-proof-private-credit-investing) 

 

# Jennifer Grancio @ Future Proof: Private Credit Investing

 

 

Dave Nadig talked private credit, CLOs, and ETFs with TCW's Jennifer Grancio at Future Proof.



 

 

 

 

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 Oct 03, 2025

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Dave Nadig delved into the private credit waters with Jennifer Grancio, Global Head of Distribution at TCW. The two discussed the real issues around liquidity and how investors should think about CLOs.

# Jennifer Grancio &amp; Dave Nadig Conversation - Full Transcript

## Opening: Where ETFs Make Sense in CLOs

**Nadig:** Where's the line on, “it could go in an ETF” to “probably shouldn't be in an ETF”?

**Grancio:** In CLOs, we run a triple-A CLO, [ACLO](https://www.etf.com/ACLO). Triple-A is great, top of B, but once you're in B and C, that's not a daily liquid product.

 
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## Private Credit and Liquidity

**Nadig:** I'm with Jennifer Grancio at TCW. Look, we've been talking about private stuff for a long time. Give me their straight story about private credit, private equity, what belongs, what doesn't, and how we're going to navigate this mess?

**Grancio:** Well, it's a mess, but it's the early, early innings, I would say. So, the way we think about it from a TCW perspective is if you look at private equity or a lot of private credit, when you're in an investment, it's not turning over in a day or a month, right? You're in it for five years or seven years. So, our view is in a lot of those products, they're not liquid. And so, they do really well in draw-down vehicles or private vehicles or evergreen vehicles. At TCW, that's what we're doing in that space.

Now, when you get to something like asset-backed finance, where it's securitized and it's private – so you get a percentage impact, like if you're in a public fixed income, you're at 7%. If you move over to ABF, you're 9% plus. That's good. That's good for portfolios. But in those loans, they're self-amortizing every two to four years. In that category, you can do some public and in private, the loans are actually paying off and you're getting income. So, in that case, we believe you can do something semi-liquid. I still wouldn't do an ETF there. So, the way we think about it is you can do an interval fund. We, in fact, have an interval fund in that segment, and it's semi-liquid, but that's really different than daily liquidity. I hear a lot of this conversation that we're doing privates in ETFs. I'm not sure.

## Talking the TPAY Advisor Experience

**Nadig:** Well, talk to me about what the advisor experience might be working with that interval fund. What can they get in, when can they get their clients out of it, what kind of fees would they be expecting? Like, what's their actual experience as an investor because like you said, it's not an ETF.

**Grancio:** No, it's not an ETF. And so, if you step into an interval fund, you have to think of it as different. It's not intra-day daily liquidity. And if you have a private that is daily liquidity, you really have to understand what's in the fund. So, for us with[ TPAY](https://www.tcw.com/Products/Interval-Funds/TCW-Private-Asset-Income-Fund/TPAYX-A), which is the interval fund we do in this private securitized space, you can come in whenever you want. We're going to start with monthly. And there is some liquidity, and we're paying income. But it's very different than an ETF where you've got daily liquidity.

**Nadig:** So, where would that fit for an advisor who's looking at their client base, trying to figure out, “Okay, where's the right fit between the client and that pattern of returns?” What's a typical use case in the wealth market?

**Grancio:** Yeah, I think in the wealth market, it's for clients that are a little bit higher net worth, and so they have another way to get liquidity. They're getting cash from a job, they have public fixed income with an income target, and so they're getting that from some other part of the portfolio. And then what you're able to do by adding an interval fund in private credit is you are getting more yield and you're getting more income, but you're not relying on that for all of your liquidity. You've got something else in the portfolio that's giving you regular income.

## Level-Setting Investing Expectations for Interval Funds

**Nadig:** So, if you did make a big allocation in, you should be thinking about that as, okay, I put my million dollars in. I'm not getting a million dollars out. I'm getting an income stream and then sort of an ability to get a regular amount of that out, but you're not just going to be able to hit the sell button. Is that right?

**Grancio:** No, that's right. I mean, you should think about getting small amounts, percentage points out of that on a regular basis. And then the other thing we do is if you go even more high net worth or not quite ultra-high net worth, but as you progress up the spectrum, a lot of people are using that in a retirement account. So, you can put a product like that in an IRA where you don't need liquidity and you're tax-shielded from income.

I see two use cases: small percentage, and it's not regular daily liquidity in your core portfolio. Get your daily liquidity from your public fixed income fund, which as you know, we also do that at TCW. And then we're seeing in the private credit space, you can use some of these products like a TPAY, our product, that are high income. You can actually use them in an IRA or a tax-deferred account, which is a nice way to let it grow at that higher return, but you're not paying the tax on the income.

## Where ETFs Do and Don’t Make Sense in CLOs

**Nadig:** Right. So, where do you think the line is? I have this conversation with a lot of people. Where's the line on, “it could go in an ETF” to “probably shouldn't be in an ETF, belongs in an interval fund”? How do you draw the line? Is it like a certain level of CLO?

**Jennifer Grancio:** Yeah, when we talk, what we talk about is, if you think about it, there's, you kind of cross over from even if something is publicly traded, it gets less liquid. So, the kind of the less liquid side of the securitized market. In CLOs, we run a triple-A CLO,[ ACLO](https://www.etf.com/ACLO). Triple-A is great, top of B but once you're in B and C, that's not a daily liquid product. Our investors would tell you, things can happen in the market. You can't always get in and out of those products, so those should be funded. Could be something that's in a mutual fund, could be an interval fund, or we may start to have ETFs that don't have liquidity.

**Nadig:** Got it. So, in the CLO market, I'm right that that's probably where it is, but not all the way to the bottom of that trading CLO market, really in that double-B area is where you start to have concerns.

**Grancio:** Yeah, and there's some ways you can get a lot of liquidity in the kind of the triple-A and A of CLO, but as you get down into B, you don't have that kind of liquidity. So, it's not a bad thing to invest in, but you shouldn't expect that regular liquidity.

**Nadig:** Well, thanks for helping me get the lines on the map there. Appreciate it, Jennifer.

**Grancio:** Nice to see you

**Nadig:** Cheers.



 

 

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